You guys may be Fooked

If the PCs want do that why couldn't we? If we've got the influences it might be worth it to get lots of sliver. And dude, stepping sideways in a casino? The Veil is probably very high there. Total weaver tech going on.

Also, Laws of the Night says NOTHING at all about Gangrel having lower taint. That was 2cd ed, not this edition. Gangrel don't have that as a Clan Advantage anymore, (kinda like how Nos can't declare fair escape near a sewer grate anymore, or Malks being able to ignore status with no penalty, Brujah had that stupid one that they "stick together" but couldn't really be enforced.) Just says Gangrel can learn Lupine Lore by observing and evading the Garou. The Garou also aren't any more favorably inclined towards Gangrel than anyone else.

The difficulty of the veil is unimportant. A garou can always spend a gnosis to step sideways most games don't even require a mirror if they do so and I've never heard of anyone requiring a mirror for them to step back.

Which means that in addition to the lowliest garou having more physical traits in Crinos than a max phys neonate, they can also declare fair escape into the umbra, regenerate all that damage they took, then jump out and surprise you from behind.

Or did you expect them to play fair?

It's still going to be hard for them to keep doing that. So what, they just ALL have max Gnosis? I'm also not sure they can really just pop in and out of the Umbra. It's a test to move back and forth is it not? Unless they want to test they'd have to keep blowing Gnosis.

Why would they need to 'keep doing it'? Assuming they win only one challenge in three against you, they only need to do it twice to beat you silly. That's two gnosis. Starting for Metis is 3. And most BSDs are Metis.

And how would doing it twice "beat me silly"? They would indeed have to "keep doing it". I'm not the only one at the fight after all. I don't think it's as easy to just jump in and out of the Umbra as you think it is.

The further up on humanity you are the less wyrm taint you have and so the less will be detected off you to start with. I believe for all purposes at 4 humanity you have so little taint it doesn't even register, 3 ranks only the slightest of taint. Banes are attracted to wyrm taint and as a high humanity trait vampire you can in theory produce no wyrm taint so wouldn't it be pointless for a bane to follow said vampire around? Most ST's I've dealt with in and around a werewolf setting and the way I've enterpreted the way that was written is you generate wyrm taint as if you were one trait higher on humanity as a gangrel, not just some false sent of less wyrm taint for the sake of a garou using the gift.

As for stepping sideways in the Casino.. First, the battle isn't going to be happening in the casino but far... far.. below it and there's other factors that can play into the gauntlet rating. There have been Glasswalker dominant Caerns in heavily technology based area's as well. On top of that you can attempt to step sideways anywhere, the gauntlet rating is simply higher in locations of greater technology. The mechanics of the werewolf game I believe also allow you to burn a temporary gnosis to step sideways and/or peer through the gauntlet regardless of the gauntlet rating at virtually any time.

Yeah and that's a Glass Walker Caern. The Gauntlet is much lower in a Caern. This is not a Caern and these aren't Glass Walkers. (At least as far as we know it's not a Caren or Hive as the BSD call them. If it is we should seriously abort.)Regardless of if it's far far below, they are still in a city/urban area, there is still tech around as well. The gauntlet rating is going to be higher. And yes you can spend a Gnosis to instantly step sideways but that's not for the whole scene. Also, you cannot spend Gnosis and Rage in the same turn unless a gift specifically allows you to do so. If we bring enough silver with us it should also reduce their Gnosis, theoretically. We'd have to bring a shitton of it and I don't see that happening but hey, it could. Possible but not Probable. :-p

So would BSD's be attracted to a lower humanity? I always figured the closer to wyrm taint you were, the less attractive you were, but I've never played/run any game with Garou in it (or at least in playing terms, where it actually mattered to me)...

Damn, now I think I need to read the Werewolf books...*has avoided this for well over a decade, and thus shakes fist at Jason in annoyance, LOL!*

Also (in response to Scott's comment) Do BSD's have caerns? I'm really, really (scarily really) unfamiliar with Werewolf rules...and I feel like bugging you guys, rather than asking James and/or reading our copy of Laws of the Wild. So humor me...since I'm not usually this active!

BSD wouldn't give a shit what your humanity was, they are pretty insane and fucked up I'd think most would kill you for shits and giggles. They do work with Wyrm Tainted humans, fomori and Sabbat. It's not so much "attracted to". But yeah you'd need a lower humanity or no humanity to really work with them. BSD sometimes work with Sabbat but they aren't buddies. BSD don't like being ordered around and serve the Wyrm in the end. NOT the Sabbat.

BSD do have Caerns. They are called Hives. They are basically fucked up, creepy and polluted places. Sometimes they corrupt a Caern and turn it into a hive.

Laws of the Wild will help with Werewolves, regular ones. For BSD you want Book of the Wyrm. Oh and it's not for the faint of heart. BSD are sick, fucked up bastards. Incest, rape, pollution and other horrible things is what they are into. The Wyrm and it's minions are not pretty and are not misunderstood. They are sick.

Garou on both sides have Caerns. Typically BSD work to corrupt Caerns while normal garou strive to protect them, all due to the fact there connection with the spirit realm is so much stronger there resulting in the lower gauntlet rating (some larger caerns have a rating of 0). Regardless of the gauntlet rating garou will always be able to make the test to step across, and it's pretty common for them to have the skills for the retests as it is used for shapeshifting to (yes, there's a challenge rating to shapeshift but often times to cut down random and often times pointless chops ST's will bypass those tests).

The reason spirits such as Banes are attracted to wyrm taint is they feed and draw energies from the wyrm taint. BSD, while tainted in unique ways by there relation with the wyrm aren't necessarily attracted to things which generate wyrm taint like vampires. Locations that have a tainted nature, like chemical spills or otherwise polluted locations, do seem to attract some BSD but the simplest way to look at a BSD is a corrupter of nature. That being said the rest of the garou would be protectors of nature.

Yeah pretty much what he said. BSD and the Wyrm also corrupt humans and society. Pentex for example makes a lot of sick and twisted products that can taint people or just kill them, some can turn you into six and twisted creatures, homicidal killers, ect. It's just scary. Vampires by their undead nature have taint in them that attracts Banes. Also since many Vampires are on low Humanity or not at all, the Wyrm likes that and so do Banes. If your not on Humanity at ALL it might be best to avoid Werewolves cause you REEK of the Wyrm to them.

And yes you can spend a Gnosis to instantly step sideways but that's not for the whole scene. Also, you cannot spend Gnosis and Rage in the same turn unless a gift specifically allows you to do so.

For someone who likes to rebut people's arguments, you don't read my posts very well. I never said they could do it for a scene. And how does not being able to spend gnosis and rage in the same round limit them? If they are leaving anyway, they don't need to spend rage, only gnosis.

See, this is why you guys rock...because you impart knowledge of things I had no idea about! Thank you!

Marius wrote:

And yes you can spend a Gnosis to instantly step sideways but that's not for the whole scene. Also, you cannot spend Gnosis and Rage in the same turn unless a gift specifically allows you to do so.

For someone who likes to rebut people's arguments, you don't read my posts very well. I never said they could do it for a scene. And how does not being able to spend gnosis and rage in the same round limit them? If they are leaving anyway, they don't need to spend rage, only gnosis.

And you don't seem to remember you own posts very well. You talked about them basically kicking my ass by popping in and out of the Umbra and now they are leaving? If they cannot spend Rage and Gnosis in the same turn, it would indeed limit them, they would have less actions to kick my ass. Yes, you didn't say they could do it for a scene but you missed the fact that if they wanted to keep popping in and out of the Umbra and cheap shooting me they would have to spend Gnosis each and every action they did so, and they could not spend Rage to get more actions.

Actually, what he said was that they could jump into the umbra to heal then come back and attack you. Not that they would be jumping back and forth from the umbra each round as some sort of tactical measure in combat like you are taking it.

They'd still be having to spend Gnosis each and every time they did that trick. One on one that would work awesome but it isn't going to be just me. Also, while they are healing, they are out of the fight and not helping their allies. It's a great individual or Garou Pack tactic, but it leaves everyone else SOL as they seperate from their non Umbra traveling allies.

And again, they would only have to spend the gnosis if they didn't want to throw the test. Granted there is a time difference crossing over when you throw chop's vs burning gnosis but if there jumping to heal or escape time isn't the biggest issue, especially at the rate Garou regenerate.

Also it doesn't change the fact you were debating him on something he didn't say.

Exactly. Thank you Theseus. You spend a gnosis, you're in the umbra. You spend a gnosis, you're out. (Or make a test, since you don't have to be in a hurry any more.)

And I can do the mathematical breakdown for you, but unless you have advanced disciplines, the werewolf is winning all ties and by round four of a fight is in a position to overbid. That's not taking into account any crinos bonuses other than traits.

Which means that even if you were landing two blows for every one the werewolf landed, by the time you deal 8 damage to him, he's dealt 4 AGG to you. Which means that he can step into the umbra, regenerate for 8 rounds, and come back out to deal another 4 agg before he has to jump into the umbra again to heal. Total of about 30 rounds of combat. On round 30, the vampire has 8 AGG and the werewolf looks like he hasn't been touched. To me, that's the definition of beaten silly.

And you keep saying that your 'friends' would help you. But they are busy fighting werewolves and vampires of their own. Any vampire that can't hold their own in this fight, shouldn't be going. Any vampire that thinks 'my friends' will account for my inadequacy, deserves to get killed honestly. That's why the assault time consists almost entirely of elders and physical powerhouses.

Refilling Gnosis is more difficult then Rage... But there's still many way's to regain that gnosis even if you only have 3. Gnosis bag's are actually pretty easy to make and aren't horribly uncommon, especially if a garou's expecting a fight.

Honestly, if these are low level BSDs, then this is a pretty adequate challenge for the group of players and NPCs we have. Most of the assault team is comprised of elders and highly physical vampires. One of the reasons I wanted Theo Bell there. But he is smart enough to stay out of that mess.

Realistically I don't see Jason doing the in and out of the umbra deal. He'll min max the characters and stack the gifts/skills to make this a challenge but he's not going to low ball us too much with dirty tricks. Going above and beyond to keep this threat alive stonewall's all the other storylines he's got lined up behind this one so there's no motivation to stretch this out past tomorrows battle. Of course he's not going to have the BSD just roll over either and wouldn't loose any sleep with a couple of characters dying.

I'll lose a little sleep if Marius dies though. Not the ending I hope for him. But that's all part of the game.

Is Marius on the assault team or the sneaky team?

He was on the infiltration team, but when he was selected to lead, he changed to assault.